Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

topic posted Tue, June 3, 2008 - 12:28 AM by  JesusFreke
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A quick screenshot to whet your appetite :D

www.jesusfreke.com/DidjImp-...nShot.gif

Work is still in progress... It should be available in a week or two.
posted by:
JesusFreke
Dallas
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  • I've got the project hosted on sourceforge.net, and I've posted the first release. woohoo!

    See a screenshot here:
    sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php

    And download it here:
    sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php

    You'll need .NET 2.0 to run it on windows. Or if your adventurous, it also runs perfectly fine on a linux or mac box, using mono (www.mono-project.com/Main_Page)


    • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

      Thu, June 12, 2008 - 12:25 AM
      I've got another release posted up for y'all. It has some nifty new features, including:

      - A view of the bore itself
      - The ability to see what the pressure wave looks like in the bore, for any frequency
      - The ability to choose a frequency, and have the program automatically scale the bore lengthwise so that the fundamental (the drone) is the frequency you chose.
      - Various other improvements, bug fixes, and additions

      Screenshots:
      sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php

      And downloads:
      sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php

      Enjoy!
      • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

        Sat, July 12, 2008 - 11:05 AM
        Let me see if my newbie mind gets this.. this program basically tells you what size bore and what kind of taper to make in order to achieve a certain pitch/tone correct? If so that is amazing!
        • Yep, more or less :). You enter the bore dimensions of a didgeridoo and it will spit out the "acoustic impedance" of the bore, which tells you what pitch the didge will play at, among other things.

          I personally use it help design the leather didges that I create.
          • this is a great tool, especially for new crefters, you can, in theory, find out what your didge will sound like before its made thus giving you the size and shape you need to make it. alot less trial and error. im sure material affects the sound in one way or another. im interested in the construction of these leather didges, the one you last posted about ended up looking pretty neat, somewhere between carbon fiber and suede :)
            • Yeah, I like how my latest one turned out :). The outside is basically denim with epoxy applied and then sanded off, which gives it that nice "felted" or "suedey" look, and then tung oil to darken and protect it.

              I had applied the epoxy over the denim, but decided I didn't like the look of it, so I sanded it all off with a flapwheel on my dremel. It took 3 sessions of sanding.. and I was *covered* in epoxy dust after each session. My arms were totally white.. I definitely wore a face mask for that!

              After sanding it, it had a nice felty feel to it, but it was fairly light colored and I just didn't like the appearance, so I decided to apply the tung oil, which turned out pretty well.

              The material does affect the sound, but not all that much. Didgeridoos with the same bore shape that's made of wood, leather, glass, clay, metal or whatever is going to have similar playing characteristics and sound. The pitch would be near identical, although the higher harmonics might differ by a bit. At least that's my take on it. Other more experienced crafters might differ in opinion with me :). I'm still fairly inexperienced in making didges.. only 10-12 or so, and I haven't experimented with other materials, so my opinion may or may not be valid :).

              I would love to do an experiment sometime.. make up a set of didges with nearly identical bores but made out of different materials and thicknesses and cover them up so you can't tell what each one is made out of, and have people play and listen to them and see if they can tell any difference between them.






              as much as you might think. At least that's my opinion, others think differently :)
              • Hey Ben! I just had a crafting workshop with Jeff Lohr at TMG. One of the things he says is to be very cautious of epoxy dust! If you HAVE to sand, cover all of your skin, wear all the protective gear, keep it contained so it does not get in the air, throw away your clothes, etc. Maybe a little late, but I wanted to throw that out.

                BTW... sounds like a cool project. I've read some knife/pen makers have layered denim and other materials soaked in epoxy pressed together to form a block like material that can be worked similar to wood. There are some commercial variations of that called "Micarta" and other names that use canvas, paper, etc etc. I've wondered before if there would be a way to compress layers, yet formed for a didge.

                Allan
                • Oh, I certainly wore a dust mask! I know breathing lots of sanding dust of just about any kind is "a bad thing". I'm not too paranoid about getting it on my skin though. If I fall down dead suddenly one day (or my arms turn into huge cancerous tumors), I guess you'll know why :).

                  I do cover up good when I'm sanding fiberglass though.. that's one thing you don't want getting a lot of on your skin! heh :)

                  And thanks for the tip, I do appreciate it, even if I don't take heed :). Besides, I'm not planning on having to do that again! I like how it turned out.. but I don't care for the process I used to get it to that point :)

                  I had never heard of "Micarta". Interesting! Here's a tutorial on a how a guy makes some for knife handles. The final product is very nice looking!

                  www.britishblades.com/forums/...read.php

                  I can't think of any easy way to do something like that for a didge though :\. Unless you make a huge log of the stuff and "split and hollow" it. lol :)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    I am paranoid about Epoxy dust and perhaps I overstated that concern in my workshop. Better safe than sorry, especially when I am telling other people what to do! The main point I was trying to get across, is that you do not want the dust in your lungs. If the dust is all over your shop, your yard, your tools, and the like, well then you will probably be breathing it the next day, week, and month to come. Same goes for wood dust, really. Although most wood will eventually decompose..

                    It is much easier to contain it at the source, rather than after you have shot it all over the place. Of course, best to not be stripping Epoxy off in the first place! Think not only of your lungs, but those of your neighbors and such. Anyway, do what ya like. None of my business!

                    I could go on a rant about leather next, but I don't want to start sounding like you know who ; )
                    • Yeah, I certainly understand. I'm not saying it's bad advice by any means. If I were going to be doing something like that a lot, then I would probably be more careful. But it was outside in the grass, wearing a dust mask, using "work" clothes that I only wear when working with epoxy, so I'm not too concerned about it. Like you said, it's best just not to have to sand that much epoxy in the first place :).

                      So, what about leather? Now you've got me curious :). Don't worry, I'm pretty easy going. I'm always open to discussion and even "friendly debate" :).
                      • I was just being silly, is all. I am a vegetarian, but really have no qualms with ya using leather. Not that it should stop ya even if I did!

                        As an aside, you mentioned in an earlier post that only the bore was creating the sound. That the container was largely irrelevant. On that matter I would have to strongly disagree. The wall thickness, and the density of the material radically alter the sound. Same bore out of agave will sound nothing like the same bore of a hardwood. And so forth.
                        • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                          Sun, July 27, 2008 - 12:20 AM
                          Ah, Gotcha :). I certainly respect that. I thought you meant health issues from leather or something. Maybe from the chemicals leftover from the tanning process or something. *shrug*.


                          Yep, we'll have to disagree :). A simplistic example from my own crafting experience is that I once created a leather didge that was totally cylindrical in shape. Guess what? It sounds and plays like PVC pipe :).

                          Another example. I recently crafted 2 similiar didges out of leather (one of them is the didge that I mentioned in the "singing harmonic" thread). I cut out the same dimensions in the leather, but I forgot to take into account the different thickness of leather, so 1 of the didges has a slightly small bore than the other. On the didge with the singing harmonic, The walls are much thicker, and are made of numerous materials (as described in the afore-mentioned thread), while the other didge is only leather covered with a basalt sleeve (similar to fiberglass). Despite all these differences, the 2 didges sound and play very similar. The smaller bore in the "other" didge prevents it from having a singing harmonic because the impedance is shifted just enough that it doesn't line up as well with the resonance of the bore. But other than that, it's fairly hard to tell a difference between them.

                          A slight counter-example, from my own crafting experience, is how the sound of my leather didges change as they go through the crafting process. I can play them before epoxying the inside, and they sound slightly different when the leather is wet or dry, both different from after the inside is epoxied. IMO, this is mostly due to the hardness and texture of the inside wall, which directly interacts with the air.


                          >Same bore out of agave will sound nothing like the same bore of a hardwood.
                          They will sound quite similiar, IMO. Will it sound different? Yes, but only slightly. The changes will be mostly due to a different surface texture on the inside, and to a lesser extent, the differing amounts of vibrational energy that the walls absorb from the air column, due to different densities and thickness/rigidity of the material.


                          But I doubt I'll convince you of that, and I'm sure you can't convince me otherwise, unless you happen to have those 2 theoretical didges that you spoke of with the same bore that sound radically different.

                          Which is fine of course :)
                          • Interesting how many opinions can be possible with such a simple (at first glance!) instrument. I used to feel the same way you do when I only worked with Agave and plastic. Both of which can be very similar to an Epoxy coated leather stick(in my opinion!) Having spent many years working with wood, my perception has changed. Though again, it is only my perception and I do not wish to convince you that my reality is more valid than yers!

                            As a buffer to anyone who might read this and not know me.. I am routinely baffled by what causes some sticks to play the way that they do. I have played thousands of sticks and stared down the bores of almost everyone I have ever touched. Many of them play in ways I never would have expected. Chuck Wilson has a leather didj that plays like it should be made out of a super dense hardwood(to my ears). I have no idea what causes it to play the way it does. I regularly create sticks that play in an unexpected manner and I fully believe that the surest way to not know anything, is to think you know everything!

                            Would be nice to see some other crafters jump in with their two cents.

                            Anyway, the most striking anecdotal experience I can offer is from some Wild Cherry logs I got hold of a few years back. They were growing in a large grove that was cleared by the homeowner. Trees growing right next to one another had completely different characteristics. I made sticks with nearly identical bores and wall thicknesses with the same finishing schedule.

                            I use calipers to measure my wall thickness and the bore diameter, so I know they were virtually identical. They would play the same pitch, but have (to my ears) completely different tonal qualities. The 'playability' was similar, the sound was not. I also found that I used them for different songs. The weight of the finished instruments was different. The disparity in how my tooling worked the woods was evident. The soil is all I can imagine would cause this, as the trees were of similar maturity and harvested/cured at the same time. I suppose wind/gravity could have affected the trees in different ways as well.

                            I use lots of different woods and this is a fact(in my world!) - A didj made out of Elm (with a virtually identical shape) is nothing at all like a didj made out of Cherry Plum. The Cherry Plum stick would weigh almost three times what the Elm would weigh with the same wall thickness. I know this from having made sticks to examine this very trait. I hope that this is not coming off as combative? If so, I can assure you it was not my intention!

                            I will take this on as a project for next years JT. I will bring a didj made from Balsa and a Didj from Ebony(or similar wood). They will have the same bore profile/diameter and the same wall thickness. Then we can play em! I think that sounds fun and I thank you for the inspiration!

                            I know similar debates rage in the world of guitars involving 'Tone" woods. Some say it is meaningless, to others it is all that matters... is there a right or wrong? Who knows!

                            As an aside and out of curiosity, how long have you been playing/how many sticks have you made and from what materials?
                            • >I fully believe that the surest way to not know anything, is to think you know everything!

                              I couldn't agree more :). I tend to have a very scientific mindset. I form a hypothesis that fits the "data" that I have (i.e. the sum of my experiences so far), and stick to it until something comes along that challenges my hypothesis.

                              I will say right now that I certainly have far more limited crafting experience than you. I've probably made somewhere around 15-20 didges so far. But I've also done a fair bit of reading on the theoretical side of acoustics. There is a good bit of it that is still over my head, but I am gradually coming to understand more of it.

                              My thoughts on how the material affects the sound come from a combination of my experience crafting didges so far, as well as what I know about acoustics in general.

                              >I will take this on as a project for next years JT. I will bring a didj made from Balsa and a Didj from Ebony(or similar wood). They will have the same bore profile/diameter and the same wall thickness. Then we can play em! I think that sounds fun and I thank you for the inspiration!

                              That does sound like an interesting experiment :) If you let me know the measurements of the bore, I'll make and bring a leather one with the same bore dimensions, though it won't have the same wall thickness. The balsa one sounds.. interesting. That one will probably be about as light as my leather ones!

                              >I hope that this is not coming off as combative
                              Not at all :)
                              • I thought of a couple other things that might apply to this discussion.

                                Tyler Spencer and I both have made Agave instruments with hardwood extensions on the neck end. In some cases near half the length of the finished stick is Wood, half Agave. I think we would be hard pressed to find folks who thought they played like an unaltered Agave of similar shape. I do not split my Agave sticks to hollow, so it is near impossible to map the bore. So I can not say with certainty that the density of the wood is what alters them, but my experience leads me to feel quite comfortable in attributing the change to the relative hardness of the wood.

                                I think that JOL could offer a lot to this discussion. From my limited understanding of how he works, he is engaged in thickening the walls of the Agave with a slurry of stone(or other substances) and Titebond. I believe he has even referenced the weight of the stone he adds. I bet he has reasons for that!

                                I have also seen some folks who coat plastic didjs in several centimeters of Bondo and can attest to the fact that they sound different than an uncoated piece.

                                I have left Agaves thicker in the neck when hollowing, and do not feel that it is anywhere near the same as when I add the same thickness of wood onto a shortened stalk. That alone leads me to feel the overall density is more important than the thickness.

                                That all said, I feel that the bore is still the main factor in how the stick will play.

                                I also alter the wall thickness throughout my sticks. I set zones, or chambers up. 2 to 5 of them, though generally 3 sections. A neck or throat, a body, and a bell. I generally have the neck end almost twice as thick as the bell. In some cases the bell is a third the thickness of the neck. I know this is a thickness change, not one of density, but it certainly affects how the stick plays and sounds(in my world!).

                                Another thing that seems relevant are the numerous studies done on classical Violins. Stradivarius in particular. From what I understand, the most recent hypothesis is that the sound his instruments achieve is a result of the old growth woods used and the fact that the trees grew in a climate that no longer exists on the planet. No one can recreate the instruments and it is because the density of the wood is not replicable..

                                Anyway, those are some thoughts bouncin round my noodle. I will get you the bore measurements when I start those two sticks. With your leather being a different wall thickness, I am not sure what we will learn when comparing them all, but it should be fun!

                                I really hope JOL chimes in, cause this seems right up his alley.
                                • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                                  Mon, July 28, 2008 - 12:20 PM
                                  This is a great conversation and im gleaning bits and pieces of valuable info from it.... gotta love it!

                                  I grew up working in my parents retail music store and have heard the wood debate on guitars ( its come up in other instruments as well) over and over and over again.. i have also heard with my own ears, "sound offs" between 2 identically built acoustic guitars of different woods ( same hardware, finish, shape, internal bracing pattern, strings, thickness etc) and have heard the difference in the 2 instruments, although not a striking difference ( and possibly not evident to someone who has not heard every guitar under the sun played a million times a day by various would be rockers ) the warmth between the 2 was different, one was teak and the other American cherry. The teak was grown in brazil and the American cherry in Oregon.

                                  Its an odd thing how wood can be effected by outside influences. to further conglomerate the debate.. ive also run into, on several occasions, guitars of the same build and different woods that sound the same..or close enough to the same that one wonders does the wood make any difference at all. this is one of those timless debates that im sure is altered by each of us as an individual with our own unique abilitys and the way we each hear things. Just like us.. trees are a living breathing entity and I doubt we can figure out to what extent enviromental factors such as wind, sun, and soil, have on their ability to transmit sound. using something more controlled may be a good test.. I wonder if theres a route to go with the bondo coated PVC that Jeff mentioned.. if it were covered in the same amount of something less or more dense would it sound the same? this is a great thread and im definitly in on next years JT to hear the didges that are a product of it :)

                                  -Jaylon


                                • String instruments are an entirely different beast :).

                                  I can see how the material would affect a guitar's sound, because the material actually does contribute to the production of the sound. The vibrations are transferred from the strings to the body of the instrument through the bridge, and then the vibrations in the body of the instrument excite the air inside the body, which escapes through the tone holes and produces the sound that we hear.

                                  (as least I think that's how it works.. I'm no expert on the acoustics of string instruments :)).

                                  Since the material of the body is an integral part of how the instrument makes sound, it makes sense that the body material would affect the sound.

                                  With a wind instrument, the vibrations are transferred from the reed/lips directly to the air column. The instrument's purpose is just to contain the air. The only effect it has on the sound is the extent to which it absorbs energy from vibrating air column, which is mostly a function of the hardness and texture of the inside surface of the bore, and the density and rigidity of the material.

                                  Let me state that another way - the body of a wind instrument isn't a part of the primary mechanism of sound production. The reed (lips) and the air contained inside the bore are the primary vibrators.





                                  I just had an idea :). Jeff, do you think you could make a didge from 3 separate segments, using a tenon joint to join them? (the same type of joint used in a clarinet for example).

                                  If so, you could segment the didge so that each segment roughly corresponds to one of the "zones" that you mention, and then
                                  you could create multiple pieces for the same segment, made out of different materials, or with different thicknesses (but with the same bore dimensions). We could then say, switch out the "throat" segment but keep the same body and bell and see if/how it sounds and plays differently.

                                  I'm not a woodworker, so I'm not sure how you would go about doing that, or how much work it would be... or even if that type of joint would be strong enough to hold the didge together without breaking.

                                  But if it's possibly without too much additional work, it would be quite interesting to play around with :).

                                  That would actually be a really cool way to produce didges in general.. You could standardize the size of each joint, and then make segments of varying bore shapes and lengths, and you could "mix and match" to your heart's content. You could throw in "extensions" to lengthen the didge to make it play lower... if only I had space for a workshop.. :D




                                  • Hmmm. That actually sounds a bit like what WhiteKnight did with his travel gourd didge.. except he used PVC for the joints.
                                    • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                                      Tue, July 29, 2008 - 10:12 PM
                                      I love that you came up with that! I am way ahead of ya on that front, though the idea has not been to alter the thickness of the wood, but to have a 'body' that would accept different length 'necks'. Basically, numerous instruments in one.

                                      Only trouble is they are going to cost something like 2000 bucks or so. Not really something I can whip out for experymentin' just yet. Though as I move out of prototype mode perhaps...

                                      To have everything fit together and play like an unaltered stick requires absolute precision. I am only working in a two piece mode now. Adding a third section and altering wall thickness in a non-uniform way would be very difficult. Adding a different wood however, will not be. Interesting to think about!

                                      Your description of how the body of a stringed instrument resonates is exactly how I think about my sticks. I can introduce you to a Clarinet player I know who has spent obscene amounts of money on custom wood for couplers and different bells. All because they resonate differently. I agree that a Clarinet sounds a lot like another Clarinet, but there are differences in how wood densities affect the sound and people pay through the wazoo for it.

                                      Same with brass instruments.

                                      Same with the Didjeridu!

                                      The differences may be small when looked at in wave form, but the subtleties are the good stuff. In my world at least!
                                      • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                                        Wed, July 30, 2008 - 11:21 AM
                                        BTW, that's awesome that you're already working on a similar idea. I can certainly see how it must be a precise fit, which I would assume to be fairly labor intensive.

                                        I look forward to seeing what you do with that idea :)
                                        • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                                          Wed, July 30, 2008 - 11:40 AM
                                          that oboe test article was great. the world of acoustics is almost endless, its amazing how one element can change so much yet another will change almost nothing. what I do know is that I cant wait to get to JT and hear the differences for myself :) hopefully Ill have my leather didge done thanks to Bens tutorial and calculator... you need your own webpage man!

                                          -Jaylon
                                          • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                                            Wed, July 30, 2008 - 12:31 PM
                                            Thanks for that link Ben!

                                            I think it yet again shows that we have been saying the same thing the entire time. The deviation in sounds was not so much the material, but the construction. They are comparing instruments with highly similar thicknesses and densities. When a deviation was discovered, they posited it on poor craftsmanship.

                                            I will happily agree that Didjeridu of an identical bore shape, with virtually identical wall thicknesses and densities will sound the same, regardless of material.

                                            That said, no one is making Didjeridu that can be compared like those Oboes were. There is no 'standard' of construction. I would be amazed if a concrete Oboe with a inch thick wall, sounded exactly like the instruments they were testing. Are you suggesting that it would?

                                            So, I still stand by my argument that the relative density of the walls and the thickness will absolutely alter the tone. And that in an instrument capable of producing only a few pitches, those deviations are highly important and worthy of examination. I eagerly acknowledge that if all characteristics were replicated by another material, the sound would be the same.

                                            • Re: Didgeridoo impedance calculator in the works

                                              Wed, July 30, 2008 - 12:41 PM
                                              This is why I am excited about making two sticks of the same measurements, but with radically different densities. The bores will be oiled of course!

                                              I suppose another test would be the same bore profile from Balsa and Ebony, but with the walls of the Ebony Didj three times as thick...
                                              • Jeff, Have you made any didges from Balsa yet? im curious as to how close they sound to agave or yucca.
                                                as a side note i cant wait to see that ebony didge. a guy that frequents our store has a nice handmade copy ( aesthetic copy, not made of the same materials obviously) of a les paul with a body constructed of ebony, man is it beautifull!

                                                Jaylon
                                                • It would be interesting to find a length of balsa long enough =). I have a few yucca that have a density of that of balsa. Speaking of dense, i can see how trees even within the same grove could have different playing characteristics. I've got poles that are about the same height and width but differ in weight by actual pounds, totally dry. I've made a couple in yucca that sound very different depending on how much material i leave, i've got one that i've shaved to a 1/4 in thick and others with 3 quarters or more. the more fibrous material left mellows the tone but adds boom that you can feel conduct along the 'bark' of the yucca. I was going to say it also will depend on your resin/beeswax and how much it actually penetrates the wood, changing the skin density.

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