Oil Finish Applications

topic posted Tue, May 27, 2008 - 9:14 PM by  whiteknight
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Hope this hasn't been covered in between the lines of the other oil related threads.

I've decided to go for my first split and hollow didge creation using a blend of 100% tung oil and citrus solvent. My questions are mostly in the application of this or a similar blend.

Interior: What is the minimum recommended drying time between coats? How many coats would be considered "good enough" in most cases (say on a piece made from walnut)? Is there a huge advantage in applying say 3 coats versus maybe 10?

Exterior: What is the minimum recommended drying time between coats?

Thanks!
Allan
posted by:
whiteknight
Michigan
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  • Re: Oil Finish Applications

    Wed, May 28, 2008 - 1:16 AM
    I have a little bit of experience with tung oil, but none using it on wood.

    You have several different options as to the type of tung oil you use. You mention 100% tung oil, so you probably mean raw, or "uncooked" tung oil. This was the first tung oil I tried, a year or two ago, and I'm not planning on using it again for anything. It takes *forever* to dry. I don't remember how long first hand, but from what I've read, it can take a month or longer. I don't know anything about how long you should wait between coats, when using this.

    There's also polymerized tung oil, which you can get in several forms. The polymerized tung oil has been "cooked", in order to speed up the drying process, but is otherwise identical to the "raw" tung oil.

    I just recently got a blend of with 50% polymerized tung oil and 50% solvent, plus some trace minerals to help speed drying, and I can say that it definitely dries *much* faster. It's dry to the touch in something like 4-6 hours, and completely dry at probably a day or so. According to the manufacturer's info, they chose the solvents and drying minerals to be the least toxic as possible. But I don't like the smell of it, even after it has dried, and probably wont use the rest of it. I don't mind the smell of tung oil itself, so I'm not sure if its the solvent they use or what, but I'm not crazy about it.

    And finally, I also recently bought some pure polymerized tung oil. I just got it in today, and applied it.. so we'll see how it does. I can already say that it doesn't dry as fast as the above mix, but I expect it to dry within a couple of days - much faster than raw tung oil. If you are going to blend your own mix, with citrus solvent, this is the type of tung oil that I would suggest. I suspect this is what I'll use in the future.

    Here are a few links to the products I mentioned above.

    Here's where I got the 100% raw tung oil. They also sell citrus solvent.
    www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html

    Here's the 50% mix of polymerized tung oil,
    www.mazzonetruevalue.com/catal...fo.php
    and here's more info from the manufacturer,
    www.sutherlandwelles.com/orig_pto.htm

    And finally, the 100% pure polymerized tung oil,
    www.twispenvironmental.com/index.php

    • Re: Oil Finish Applications

      Wed, May 28, 2008 - 6:05 PM
      I use oils from Bens last link there, Twisp Environmental. I use a mixture of 60% Citrofin , 25% Tung, and 15% Linseed. The first coat will be dry to the touch within a few hours begging for follow up coats. The second coat might dry to the touch, or it might leave a film on the surface that you'll need to wipe, then buff off. Getting that off doesn't make the oil dry even though it does make the stick feel dry. Actual drying can take days or even weeks, though you can handle it and play it during this time. You should count on soaking it down with the oil mixture at least four or five times over the first two weeks and then assume you'll maintain it with oil every year or so depending on the amount of exposure it gets.
      • Re: Oil Finish Applications

        Thu, May 29, 2008 - 6:52 AM
        Thanks for the info Ben and Chad!

        I was planning on buying the citrus solvent and honey colored pure tung oil from here: www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html but not the darker colored raw stuff. But it's not as much of a polymerized tung oil as the Twisp stuff. I'll give the Twisp a shot with their citrus solvent (Citrofin).

        Thanks,
        Allan
        • Re: Oil Finish Applications

          Thu, May 29, 2008 - 2:24 PM
          Allan, that probably a wise choice, preparing oil yer self for finishes is a real art/science. Boiling, blowing or making a stand oil can lead to expensive mistakes.
          As far as coat time between coats, that again is a bit of a science/art. Like making didjs a lot of this in feeling and intuition, the world is not euclidian, use the force... understanding the basic theory and then feeling it out..
          Basic theory -The reaction a dry oil goes through starts with the formation of long chain/hair/strand like molecules, in time these molecules interlock side to side. In terms of layering coats this side to side becomes up and down. So the ideal time is one which this side to side bonding step in the reaction still has the potential of taking place. In this manner you end up with one thick cohesive mass and not a bunch of individual layers.
          In regards to working with walnut... Walnut is a very porous wood. Getting a smooth consistent finish with porous wood is tricky and can be very time consuming with the use of oil finishes. You might want to look into he use of pumice and rotten stone. These are sort of staples of oil finishing in the furniture world. You might want to check yer local library for any such books on wood finishes/finishing. I had a copy of "understanding wood finishing" by Bob Flexner for a while learned a lot from that one.
          as far as any suggestion in the application.... I always finish with a temperature drop. Afternoon, as thing are cooling off is a good natural way to achieve this. Or move project from attic to basement. This pulls finishes deeper into wood on penetration coats and prevents bubbling in the surface coats. General rule of thumb i follow is a movement up the spectrum, from thinned to not thinned. Penetrating coats followed by several thin build up coats. 50% 50% mix is probably about the max you want to go. If my solvent is not very expensive i sometimes do a straight solvent treatment to prime the wood(clean out dust and open up pours). Rubbing alcohol is a cheap way to clean and prep wood...you just want to be sure it's all evaporated before you start in...the solvent is good cause you know it wont conflict with the product. .....a bath of 50 50, then a 40 60 coat, then 30 70, then 20 80, then 10 90, then just the straight stuff. with each step i would do less and less aggressive of a coat. From flood to trickle.....

          p.s guys a great resource for learning on google books
          "Chemical Technology and Analysis of Oils, Fats, and Waxes is a book" written in 1904 way COOL!

          peace
  • Re: Oil Finish Applications

    Thu, May 29, 2008 - 7:55 PM
    Check out Livos.
    They are a great company based in germany producing the finest wood finishes commercially available.
    I will add a post soon with what products I use and have had great success with but am running low on time...my daughter and son are needing my attention. I have been using their products for the past 6 years or so.
    I will post more details soon
    Donald
    • Re: Oil Finish Applications

      Fri, May 30, 2008 - 3:26 PM
      wow..i'm glad that some information was obtainable from that mess i wrote last week, i've been slowly plug'n a way at an edited version. But i'm glad to know that it was some what readable. i do applogise, but that's just my curse in this life...gues i could have it worse.

      peace

      p.s there are a lot of good old texts on varnishes in google books too, if you simply do a "varnish" search in google books...you might have to skip to the second or third page of results to start finding the good stuf. google books Rocks!
      • Re: Oil Finish Applications

        Fri, May 30, 2008 - 3:30 PM
        p.s.s
        i've been reading up on boat varnishes... figure if it's good enough for a boat, it's good enough for a didj. Simply search "boat varnish" in google books.

        peace
        • Re: Oil Finish Applications

          Sat, May 31, 2008 - 11:44 AM
          The thing with a boat is that you don't have to kiss the hull everyday :D
          • Re: Oil Finish Applications

            Sat, May 31, 2008 - 2:13 PM
            my first exposure to woodworking was on boats back in the 80's. On boats the woodwork is almost exclusivly teak and although some people use varnish the vast majority use Seafin teak oil which is very very different from the oil process I use on didges. In my post above I mentioned about that first coat of oil drying quickly but then when I actually went and got involved in oiling a stick later that night I realized that I actually keep adding oil over the first few hours getting it as saturated as possible and when any portion starts showing up satin rather than glossy I add more oil. The next morning I started the same process over again and it would seem that I've oiled the surface at least 7 or 8 times by the time I'm thinking I'm on my second coat.
            • Re: Oil Finish Applications

              Sun, June 1, 2008 - 6:39 PM


              Yeh seems like saturation is a good thing...i've said this before, but, i still do fantasize sometimes, about a big tube that could fit a whole didj..fill er up with thinged oil then through some sort of piston like system put all that oil and didj under pressure... kinda like that device we talked about, chad, to turn wood chips/shaveings into a presto log thingy.... that ought to get the oil in there!

              peace
              • Re: Oil Finish Applications

                Sun, June 1, 2008 - 7:02 PM
                How about a big tube of PVC, maybe 10-12" diameter with a screw-on endcap and fitted with an air compressor fitting??

                Per
                • Re: Oil Finish Applications

                  Mon, June 2, 2008 - 5:08 AM
                  Actually, I don't think you'd want to PUSH air or liquid, you'd want to PULL air. At least that is what's done in most wood stabilizations. Wood stabilization usually uses a container large enough for the wood source and filled with some type of liquid acrylic resin. The container has a vacuum system on it that works until the wood is completely impregnated. I would guess that an oil mixture could be used instead of liquid acrylic resin.

                  Old refrigerators can provide the vacuum pump, so I read:
                  www.dream-models.com/eco/vacuumpump.html

                  As a side note... liquid acrylic resins are nasty stuff. I once investigated using stabilized wood as a didge mouthpiece. One of the top guys of the wood stabilization business told me he would never put the finished wood near his mouth.

                  Have a good one,
                  Allan
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Oil Finish Applications

                    Sat, June 7, 2008 - 11:07 PM


                    I don't know a whole lot about the pressure treating industry..but pressure treating is called that because that is what it is...forceing a preservative into wood through high pressure. here's a quote from understanding wood, third paragraph in chapter 11 modifying wood. " They key to using preservatives is penetration. Only areas of the wood that are pentrated by preservative chemicals will be protected. A first consideration, then is choosing the most penetrable wood. GEnerally, sapwood or speices with low extractive content (e.g spruce)- ironically those that usualy have the least natual decay resistance-are the best choice for preservative treatment. Excetp for ver thin peices, the only way to attian any worth while degree of penetration is under pressure Comercially this is done using cylinders that produce pressures up to 150 psi, and some times also vaccum treatment or elvated temperatures." .....
                    I'm not sure what psi would be need to push a thined tung oil or some other good drying oil into a 1/2 to 1/4 inch walled didj or what psi a pvc tube can handle. Pvc has deffinantly been a consideration...

                    peace
                    • Re: Oil Finish Applications

                      Sat, June 7, 2008 - 11:27 PM
                      Here's a quick link, with some helpful info on PSI ratings for PVC pipe. For example 10" schedule 80 pipe is rated for 140PSI. Although I'm sure you wouldn't want to push it that high. 100PSI should be doable.

                      www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-....html

                      You might look into ABS pipe as well.. from the little bit I know, ABS pipe is safer, in the sense that it tends to stretch more, where PVC tends to be more brittle (think sharp flying chucks of PVC pipe)
                      • Re: Oil Finish Applications

                        Sat, June 7, 2008 - 11:29 PM
                        >100PSI should be doable.

                        Obviously don't go on just my word on that. I have no practical knowledge in this area :D
                        • Re: Oil Finish Applications

                          Sun, June 15, 2008 - 10:29 AM
                          PLEASE DO NOT pressurize plastic/pvc/abs pipe with a compressable fluid like air.
                          If the pipe does rupture or break it is a bomb.
                          The PSI ratings you are seeing is only for a non-compressable fluid like water or other liquid.
                          Robert
                          • Re: Oil Finish Applications

                            Sun, June 15, 2008 - 2:03 PM
                            Hum, yeh not sure if i like the idea of mixing air and or potentially water, on acount of the air being compressed air, with my oil mix, any ways. I really picture this thing using simple mechanics to get the pressure. Like the parts from an old apple press. It would would most likely end up looking and working a bit like submerine hatch.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Oil Finish Applications

    Tue, November 3, 2009 - 2:29 AM

    how you doin white night.
    i know quite a bit about making, treating and playing didj,
    i would suggest apply coats to the out side of the didj and dont use oil
    and leave the inside alone.
    i would be quite happy to explain if you are interested.
    have a good one.
    jumma

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